RollBack Rx V9 Defragging files. Is snapshot degfrag a complete alternative?

[Kevin]

I hate to belabor this defrag stuff, but I would just like one thing cleared up...

I don't have a big problem with un-installing RB or using the /ghost (or whatever it is) in 8.1 and updating the baseline, but I don't want to do this if I don't have to. In another thread it was mentioned that we could use RB's snapshot defragger as an alternative. This is what I have been doing so far, but I wondered if I should still do a system defrag every once in awhile and if so, is there a way to tell when I should? I assume normal defraggers can't report the state of the drive reliably when there are snapshots?

Also, when I update the baseline periodically, does the drive tend to get defragmented, or does snapshot defragmenter take care of everything?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I hate to belabor this defrag stuff, but I would just like one thing cleared up...

I don't have a big problem with un-installing RB or using the /ghost (or whatever it is) in 8.1 and updating the baseline, but I don't want to do this if I don't have to. In another thread it was mentioned that we could use RB's snapshot defragger as an alternative. This is what I have been doing so far, but I wondered if I should still do a system defrag every once in awhile and if so, is there a way to tell when I should? I assume normal defraggers can't report the state of the drive reliably when there are snapshots?

Also, when I update the baseline periodically, does the drive tend to get defragmented, or does snapshot defragmenter take care of everything?

Thanks,

Kevin

Hi,
I think it is not a complete alternative. Fragmentation is maybe´sister of Windows OS at HDD´ :-), but cyclic method via Rollback (I wrote it in other place of this Forum) is good in my case. Rollback to baseline (step 6.) is return to defragment. system.
NTFS disk format is not very susceptible to frag problems (freezing of programs, OS etc.), but it is thing of using PC. Some users have big change of datas every day, here is greater chance for freezing.
I think, automatic defrag is very trendy, but with normal using of PC is necessary max. 4x - 6x in year.
With installed Rollback and cyclic method is good 2x - 3x in year. I prefer here method with reinstall Rollback Rx.
P. S.
New HDD with other technology of writing and reading datas are better. Frag problem is not stressful event here.

[Nick10]

Originally Posted by Kevin

.... when I update the baseline periodically, does the drive tend to get defragmented, or does snapshot defragmenter take care of everything?

When you update the baseline, you are in fact deleting previous snapshots and recovering sectors that may have been used up by RollBack Rx's sector maps. The built in RollBack Rx defragmenter would recover the space no longer used by the previous snapshots and thus you would regain your disk space.

I did post to another thread regading defragmenting. But I think that this would be a better place to have this posted - so here it is:

...
Our stand on this "Defragger" subject has always been to:
[1] Clean up and Defrag your drives before installing RollBack Rx, so you start with a nice, defragged system.
[2] RollBack Rx has a build-in snapshot defragmenter -- use that to defrag your system once RollBack Rx is installed.
[3] If you really need to defrag the drives with a third party tool: Uninstall RollBack Rx, defrag the drives and then reinstall RollBack Rx.

Defragmenting Files using traditional file level defragging tools - I'll try to explain the differences here as easily as possible.

The objective of defragmenting is to optimize the hard drive for efficient use by the Windows Operating System and, thus, improve system performance. Defragmenting tools are Windows based applications - they work by looking for fragmented files and moving them into contiguous extents. Typical file level defraggers move sectors and allocates files as per how "Windows" sees them. Windows wants all the reds close together, Blues and whites in a nicely ordered sequence etc... This is all nice and works great when you have a bare Windows system (one that does not have RollBack Rx installed).

When you have RollBack Rx installed onto a Windows based PC - The Windows OS "sits" on top of another mini OS (RollBack Rx's Subconsole). The OS that boots prior to Windows when you turn on your PC.

When RollBack Rx is installed, it writes its snapshots directly onto the sectors of the hard drive. These snapshots are not saved as "Files", but rather as sector maps. Its' sector based mapping is written in a form that is invisible to Windows. Since these sector maps are not saved as files or folders - Windows CAN NOT see them...

When you run a Windows based file defragger - These defraggers can only organize the files and folders that Windows can see. However, Windows can not see any of the RollBack Rx snapshots and therefore, can not perform a proper file level defragmentation...

Furthermore - Rollback Rx does not distinguish between applications - it just protects your entire root drive (0) - usually your C: Drive. RollBack Rx can not tell the difference from files being moved by a defragger, Word2007 or Photoshop... From the perspective of RollBack Rx - defragmentation of files by a Windows file defragger is seen as a massive "change in data".

eg. If you were to defrag your PC using a Windows file level defragger today... And then roll-back to yesterdays snapshot - The entire process of defragging your drive would have been a total waste of time... You would be back to square one. The defragged version of your Windows files system and data were only contained within a single snapshot.

You see RollBack Rx can not tell the difference between defragging your PC or say downloading a movie. Both actions would consume alot of disk space, and thus your snapshot would be extremely large. (again "Change in data" from the last snapshot)

Conclusion:

After knowing how windows defraggers work and how RollBack Rx looks at defraggers - some people may still prefer to defrag their drives. Our recommendation is to use the steps provided above (uninstall.. re-install). However, we will create a defragger version that will simply automate some of the processes.

** update RollBack Rx V9.x has the defragger command line switch integrated - see post below on its functionality **

In a nutshell the defragger build will:

[1] Allow you to Run the Defragger
[2] Require you to Manually Update the Baseline (all other snapshots will be deleted)
[3] Restart the PC

(basically you would not need to uninstall RollBack Rx and Re-install)

Thanks.

[Baldrick]

Originally Posted by Nick10

However, we will create a defragger version that will simply automate some of the processes. In a nutshell the defragger build will:

[1] Allow you to Run the Defragger
[2] Update the Baseline (all other snapshots will be deleted)
[3] Restart the PC

(basically you would not need to uninstall RollBack Rx and Re-install)

Thanks.

Hey Nick

That is cool. Please let me know when this is available so that I can give it a whirl.

Cheers



Baldrick

[Nick10]

Here is some good news that I just discovered... The latest version of RollBack Rx 9 has included the defragger switch. It was created as a silent update to version 9 as many users had requested this in version 8.x.

In order to use this feature however - it needs to be activated via the command line. Also it is important to understand the above thread on how file level defragging is perceived by RollBack Rx. It is advised to update your baseline when you've completed the defragging.

In the future, when you want to defrag with a third party or OEM Defrag tool, do the following:

1. Run command line switch "shieldcmd /defrag" (no quotes) from start/run
2. Defrag your OS and File system using your own defragging utility (eg. Diskkeeper, Perfect Disk, Windows etc.)
3. Run update baseline from RollBack Rx client application console -> manage baseline -> make the current system (after defragged system) as a new baselline snapshot.

Even in this cirumstance, you will LOSE all your previous snapshots. It is for this reason that we still recommend you uninstall RollBack Rx prior to defragging your PC.

We have updated our knowledge base article regarding this issue. It can be viewed at Horizon DataSys Support Portal

[Baldrick]

Thanks Nick, good to know. Will try this shortly.

[Nick10]

A few users mentioned that they would like to know the difference between the RollBack Rx GUI Windows snapshot defragger and the One contained in the subconsole (mini os that boots before windows).

Here is a link to thread that we posted that provides more information on the subject:
How RollBack Rx's Snapshot Defragger works

[nexstar]

Originally Posted by Nick10

In the future, when you want to defrag with a third party or OEM Defrag tool, do the following:

1. Run command line switch "shieldcmd /defrag" (no quotes) from start/run
2. Defrag your OS and File system using your own defragging utility (eg. Diskkeeper, Perfect Disk, Windows etc.)
3. Run update baseline from RollBack Rx client application console -> manage baseline -> make the current system (after defragged system) as a new baselline snapshot.

Nick, I was intrigued to see the order of operations for the above and wonder if you could tell my why the update of the baseline is suggested after the defragging?

I've been having this discussion elsewhere and it seemed sensible to me to update the baseline before the defrag as that would potentially clean out data which was not included in the current snapshot which would a) reduce the defrag time and b) not leave gaps when the update cleared them out later.

I must be missing something here. Any enlightenment much appreciated .

Graham

[Baldrick]

Hi Graham

We meet again. Glad to see you over here.

I may be wrong but I believe that the answer is because the 3rd party defragger does not 'see' the snapshots and therefore will defrag based on what it sees, ie, the Windows OS view of your disk. Running the baseline, I suspect, merges the snapshot position with the new Windows OS view of the disk.

I am hypothesing here but that is what I feel is likely to be the reason. I am sure that Nick will be along to put us right on this.

Again, nice to see you over here.

[nexstar]

Originally Posted by Baldrick

Hi Graham

We meet again. Glad to see you over here.

Nice to 'see' you too, Baldrick. It's a small world .

Originally Posted by Baldrick

I may be wrong but I believe that the answer is because the 3rd party defragger does not 'see' the snapshots and therefore will defrag based on what it sees, ie, the Windows OS view of your disk. Running the baseline, I suspect, merges the snapshot position with the new Windows OS view of the disk.

Yes, what I'm not clear about is, if the intention is to update the baseline anyway, why not do that first which will free up some disk space and result in less shuffling around of sectors.

Graham